Hi, - This is my first post and I have a question regarding black box data recording on our BMW E-90. While reading the manual there is a indication that data is stored hisohisn a "black box" data recorder. If this is the case, if one was involved in a mishap can a insurance company have access to the recorded data? Does anyone know what data is recorded?
cmjlevy
yes almost all cars come with a blackbox now, its constantly looping over a short period of time, its for use when you get into an accident, things like your speed during a crash, wether you were breaking or on the throttle ECT are recorded, as well as if the airbags deployed or if something failed
they used to not tell you, then auto makers got sued
this is one reason why that thread here now about your car transmiting to bmw that your ecu has changed is total bull****
they used to not tell you, then auto makers got sued
this is one reason why that thread here now about your car transmiting to bmw that your ecu has changed is total bull****
...
First, let the record show that cmjlevy and jelliotlevy are unrelated individuals. I am not his evil twin, although I did live more than 40 years in the Boston area. There definitely are significant privacy issues involved in third parties gaining access to the black box. I don't imagine that my insurance company could get access to the box without my permission. But consider a few other hypotheticals:
1. While attempting a 6 - 4 downshift at 85 mph, I accidentally perform 6 - 2, and smash a valve into a piston at 9000 rpm. Can BMW feel they are free to examine the black box for an overrev indicator indicating owner negligence and not engine defect?
2. I am arrested by the police after an accident where they suspect my criminal negligence caused it. Can they extract data from the black box without my consent to pursue their investigation?
3. I am suspected of a criminal action, and the record of vehicular speed and other parameters may be suggestive of whether or not I was at the crime scene or some other significant location(s). Can the black box be subpoenad? Imagine a black box in O.J.'s Bronco. Hmmmmm......
First, let the record show that cmjlevy and jelliotlevy are unrelated individuals. I am not his evil twin, although I did live more than 40 years in the Boston area. There definitely are significant privacy issues involved in third parties gaining access to the black box. I don't imagine that my insurance company could get access to the box without my permission. But consider a few other hypotheticals:
1. While attempting a 6 - 4 downshift at 85 mph, I accidentally perform 6 - 2, and smash a valve into a piston at 9000 rpm. Can BMW feel they are free to examine the black box for an overrev indicator indicating owner negligence and not engine defect?
2. I am arrested by the police after an accident where they suspect my criminal negligence caused it. Can they extract data from the black box without my consent to pursue their investigation?
3. I am suspected of a criminal action, and the record of vehicular speed and other parameters may be suggestive of whether or not I was at the crime scene or some other significant location(s). Can the black box be subpoenad? Imagine a black box in O.J.'s Bronco. Hmmmmm......
The dealer, the cops, and your insurance company can get a lot more information than you think when they get their hands on your vehicle. I believe even from your "key stick" they can get info on your VIN, the odometer reading the last time you use that "key", and the date and time you used that "key" last. How do I know? My significant other is an insurance claim investigator...........
Next time you bring your car in for service just watch what the service rep do with your key stick....He simply puts it in a reader and type away, already has some of the info before even asking you about your car.
Next time you bring your car in for service just watch what the service rep do with your key stick....He simply puts it in a reader and type away, already has some of the info before even asking you about your car.
Standardized Data Collection Methods already exist
One of the ASTM Standards Committees on which I serve is Committee E30 on Forensic Sciences. (The committee's alphanumberic disignation is a funny coincidence :angel: .)
Anyway, among the documents over which the committee has jurisdiction, is one titled "Practice for the Investigation of non-Volatile Memory Data in Evidentiary Vehicle Control Units"
This standard is clearly designed for use in situations in which there is litigation, and it's hard to imagine that in those circumstances one will be able to prohibit a subpoena of the data. The ASTM document, of course, only discusses the collection and preservation of the data, not legal issues.
When I was reviewing it, I did wonder whether I had more 'rights' to the use of this information as a 'buyer' of my car than people who lease their vehicles do. Specifically, is leasing a form of ownership? Rental? Does the answer vary by state?
Further, when the title to my car is held by the bank if/until I pay off any loan I may have, might they have a right/authority to access the data? Might the insurance company if they have clauses denying coverage under 'demonstrations of speed' or other exclusions.
I would bet that rental agreements for trucks and cars will grant the rental agency to investigate accidents and whether the driver was speeding, racing, screwing around, etc.
It's pretty easy to imagine the slippery slope of commercial vehicles being targeted for this technology, then dealerships, rental car agencies, and insurance companies taking it 'mainstream' to passenger vehicles. Or,.... tell my libertarian ears I'm wrong. :dunno:
One of the ASTM Standards Committees on which I serve is Committee E30 on Forensic Sciences. (The committee's alphanumberic disignation is a funny coincidence :angel: .)
Anyway, among the documents over which the committee has jurisdiction, is one titled "Practice for the Investigation of non-Volatile Memory Data in Evidentiary Vehicle Control Units"
This standard is clearly designed for use in situations in which there is litigation, and it's hard to imagine that in those circumstances one will be able to prohibit a subpoena of the data. The ASTM document, of course, only discusses the collection and preservation of the data, not legal issues.
When I was reviewing it, I did wonder whether I had more 'rights' to the use of this information as a 'buyer' of my car than people who lease their vehicles do. Specifically, is leasing a form of ownership? Rental? Does the answer vary by state?
Further, when the title to my car is held by the bank if/until I pay off any loan I may have, might they have a right/authority to access the data? Might the insurance company if they have clauses denying coverage under 'demonstrations of speed' or other exclusions.
I would bet that rental agreements for trucks and cars will grant the rental agency to investigate accidents and whether the driver was speeding, racing, screwing around, etc.
It's pretty easy to imagine the slippery slope of commercial vehicles being targeted for this technology, then dealerships, rental car agencies, and insurance companies taking it 'mainstream' to passenger vehicles. Or,.... tell my libertarian ears I'm wrong. :dunno:
To quote a (now very dead) well known player from the source of all things English
"He thinks too much... such men are dangerous"
Everything old is new again.
my understanding of the "black box" issue is the following;
these record and re-record only the last couple of minutes about the car, and then only select pieces of data, as they may pertain to an accident (i.e. the police, while conducting an investigation, may chose to examine these pieces of data).
i believe these logs include speed, steering angle, if airbags were/were not deployed, if ABS/Stability Control was/were utilized, and if/when brakes were applied.
Since OBDII accounts for all of these things, it isnt hard to wire in some extra memory to staor the data the ECU is interpreting regardless.
i do not believe, in any "ordinary" accident (i.e. fender bender) this data is utilized, as getting to the box itself is often not worth the time and energy. in cases that involve serious injury or death, i believe the police are the ONLY organizations that are allowed to access the info (and im sure this varies from state to state unfortunately) in order to have a better understanding of how the accident occured, and ultimately who may face criminal charges.
the "box" is one way to confirm or refute whitness accounts and stories told by the drivers, but i dont believe in their current form that they store enough data to be useful for much else.
these record and re-record only the last couple of minutes about the car, and then only select pieces of data, as they may pertain to an accident (i.e. the police, while conducting an investigation, may chose to examine these pieces of data).
i believe these logs include speed, steering angle, if airbags were/were not deployed, if ABS/Stability Control was/were utilized, and if/when brakes were applied.
Since OBDII accounts for all of these things, it isnt hard to wire in some extra memory to staor the data the ECU is interpreting regardless.
i do not believe, in any "ordinary" accident (i.e. fender bender) this data is utilized, as getting to the box itself is often not worth the time and energy. in cases that involve serious injury or death, i believe the police are the ONLY organizations that are allowed to access the info (and im sure this varies from state to state unfortunately) in order to have a better understanding of how the accident occured, and ultimately who may face criminal charges.
the "box" is one way to confirm or refute whitness accounts and stories told by the drivers, but i dont believe in their current form that they store enough data to be useful for much else.
I think there may be a difference in the situation where one owns the car they are driving versus an employee dricing a company car. I think there was a lot of controversy surrounding the introduction of these black boxes until insurers agreed that they would not use them against their own customers. That does not prevent them from going after a negligent employee of one of their customers, though.
If you really want to know, check your policy. Or call an agent and see if there is a "black box" clause in your policy allowing them to check it out.
If you really want to know, check your policy. Or call an agent and see if there is a "black box" clause in your policy allowing them to check it out.
Make no mistake, the insurance companies are trying desperately to create a system whereby police officers as well as insurance companies woudl have the right to access it at all times. If I can find the article from the Washington Post, I will try and link it to this thread.
It has been proposed, I believe in Oregon, that car manufacturers be forced to install a uniform plug for police to connect to and read information from the car. It is likely that the time will eventually come when they will win the right to do so. With wireless technology advancing rapidly, it's not hard to imagine a cop pulling in behind you and by running your tag he would be able to pick-up an ID/mac address to your OBD system and determine if you have been doing anything wrong. Kinda sad....:thumbdwn:
It has been proposed, I believe in Oregon, that car manufacturers be forced to install a uniform plug for police to connect to and read information from the car. It is likely that the time will eventually come when they will win the right to do so. With wireless technology advancing rapidly, it's not hard to imagine a cop pulling in behind you and by running your tag he would be able to pick-up an ID/mac address to your OBD system and determine if you have been doing anything wrong. Kinda sad....:thumbdwn:
Mr. F1 Fan, I think you and I read the same article. I just don't think it would fly though. Too much of an infringement on civil liberties.
On another note, I would think one would have a very difficult time establishing that the recording device was working properly at the time of the accident. Any signal loss or unexpected variance in the recorded values could be used to impugn the validity of the data. It would be fine for research, but I am not sure it would be considered absolutely reliable.
On another note, I would think one would have a very difficult time establishing that the recording device was working properly at the time of the accident. Any signal loss or unexpected variance in the recorded values could be used to impugn the validity of the data. It would be fine for research, but I am not sure it would be considered absolutely reliable.
It may or may not be in the BMW's & they don't have to tell customers for now:
http://www.bmwcca.org/node/5117
I remember seeing a report on a TV news magazine & 1 person was killed in a car accident(no BMW's involved) & the data recorder's speed data from the other driver was used & he was convicted. Don't remember what state it was.
Here is another article:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2004-12-27-auto-blackbox_x.htm
http://www.bmwcca.org/node/5117
I remember seeing a report on a TV news magazine & 1 person was killed in a car accident(no BMW's involved) & the data recorder's speed data from the other driver was used & he was convicted. Don't remember what state it was.
Here is another article:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/internetprivacy/2004-12-27-auto-blackbox_x.htm
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